Sproul was driving under the influence. He was bored. Friend your comment made me weep. The church as the playground of sinful social behaviors that are demonstrably harmful to others? It may be all they can do to get help. (Besides if it were my ex-pastor, and he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program, my name would eventually make it to the 9th Step list of the people he had harmed and had to make amends to!). They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. Church Discipline That was great for the money I was paid, but the dad would be so drunk, he could hardly keep the car on the road (forget about the correct lane) as he took me home. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. I get that church is not just a building, its people. That is the picture Im getting from those of you who have kept up to speed on RC Jr for a long time. I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. I dont think he knows what it is to love someone other than himself, and he doesnt do a good job of even that. We really need to drop it as this point. Theres so much pain in the world. Even though they were on the same comment, i didnt mean to apply that brown comment to your situation, but generally to the use of alcohol to dull pain. I was told that they are called functional alcoholics, but Im not sure they are alcoholics because they dont fit the stereotype alcoholic or happy drunk image. That would probably fall to the individual him or herself and/or their family. Sure enough, car driving very slowly and deliberately down the wrong side of the street. Instead he said the charges against his son were fraudulent which meant he was basically accusing everyone of being liars. No sir (or maam), I did not create a false correlation. Average Age & Life Expectancy Ann Sproul lived 9 years shorter than the average Sproul family member when she died at the age of 65. Here is a reportof the arresting officer. She was wise enough to divorce him and move across the country. That is not the point. Mr F I am not interested in reading the article and getting into a debate on his theology and no I do not believe that sin in RC2 life is caused by his fathers theology. They were fine with either term but actually preferred alky. So in deference to their preferences its what Ive used ever since then. You want to see whence my fury? ; but it seems that Velour is like Christ n her desire to see this man reconciled in his relationship to God and with his fellow man. so he keeps the whole thing going? Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. He does need to work on getting clean and sober and cleaning up his own life, and the wreckage of his past as they say in recovery programs. instead of acting like teenage boys trying to impress each other.. It appears that the message is that if we allow someone to that has no intention of repenting to go on like business as usual, we are NOT helping the person and it sends the wrong message to others. The church should do their level-best to get help for his wife and children. And then there are the most of us who do the best we can and stumble on. Unfortunately, I am in a lot of pain and maybe looking at surgery so I am having trouble keeping up with things. I am not trying to take you to task, because you are obviously passionately defending a carefully considered stance, but your mode of communication is obscuring your message. For several decades the 12 step model/solution has been the dominant one in US treatment facilities. However, I do appreciate your emphasis on treatment. By the way, you have posted before what area of medicine you worked in. Go back and re-read what I said. All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. Velda Deene Strasner Sproul Obituary With heavy hearts, we announce the death of Velda Deene Strasner Sproul of San Angelo, Texas, who passed away on January 24, 2021 at the age of 88. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? they simply enjoy all kinds of beverages because they pleasurable. This blog should be the last place to be unsafe though. Disfellowshipping someone who refuses repentence and change should not be a life sentence as it is not so in scripture. In contrast, your experience has left you with a definition for the word that involves quashing any kind of disagreement with leadership, and shunning, and cutting off relationships altogether. It only cossets him in his denial. dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? With RC Jr I just dont ever see him getting professional help, let alone sobering up for good. Just as I pray for them, too. A visitation will be held Thursday, March 11, 2023, from 10:00 am - 12:00 pm with the Celebration of Life to begin immediately following at 12:00 pm Sprowl. Many Christians are allowed to live a double life because we are afraid to confront. Christiane wrote: I hope it is true. Putting your own estimation of the weight of those actions simply show that you have a misperception of Gods holiness by thinking the bar of the law is set so low that your sins arent as repugnant as someone elses. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. Valerie Jacobsen (updated 3/28: Valerie is not R.C. His drunkenness just by itself disqualified RC2 from being a leader. If you want to raise some new issues, go for it. Having been raised in a highly abusive alcoholic home (My mom) it sickens me sometimes to read about the love and compassion we should have for the addicted.And for the we are all just sinners crowd your ignorance is truly sickening. @ okrapod: It caused him to victim-blame everyone any time they shared some struggle they were going through with him, even though they were not at fault. Not always. A scripture in James 1 speaks of the far-greater responsibility church leaders/teachers hold than believers who are not in leadership. I cannot say Amen too many times to this. But then we have more disposable income. I do not believe that an addict should be thrown out of church. Were not mind readers. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. Thank you for explaining your editorial views about the word codependent. And money. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. Some people, for example, may be convinced that consuming alcohol is against Gods law. The Bible among other things, is used to provide nourishment to ones soul, to give guidance, to provide proper understanding, to strengthen faith, to provide hope, and to give us examples of the love of God, that we may sincerely do likewise; also to establish order within the body of believers. Bike Bubba, wasnt he having problems before his first wife passed away? Within a year or two hell petition the court to expunge the misdemeanor. But doesnt seem all that likely. He needs to make amends to all of the people he hurt and to confess publicly at the churches where he pastored about the damage he did. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! The domination by one person makes it difficult to have a healthy conversation. God was with my parents & gracious to them in very different ways. That must have been very tough and I dont know why that didnt work. Velour wrote: Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. He boasts about it in his Ligonier Tales with no regret, remorse or embarrassment expressed. R.C. She was in a very fragile place. R.C. No way to cure the disease, except to not drink. Clearly. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. So for creating a scandal he got a ten month paid holiday. Thank you for your thoughtful comment to me. She understood my silence. I am well aware of the failure rates of alcoholics and substance abusers. Unfortunately, it is usually an entirely different story getting those scenarios to take place. Anyway, some of the stuff I discovered is that AA (and groups similar to it) have a high failure rate. Often it is tried multiple times. Geeze Louise. But hed lost his wife to cancer is the same excuse his supporters used to defend him over his Ashley Madison scandal. By the very nature of the role he occupies, he likewise claims authority over what God is or is not saying to the members of the organisation. But in the mean-time, we cannot look away or play the blame-game on overwhelmed souls. I saw it as narrowly focused on RC Sproul, Jr. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. NO, there is no authoritative oversight, for a couple of reasons. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. Its fine for you to decide that YOU want to knock it off. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? First of all, it can be pretty hard to define just what gossip is. Born Robert Charles Sproul on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, United States, RC, as he became best known, was the son of Robert Cecil Sproul and Mayre Ann Yardis. What he did was wrong and could have been much worse than it turned out to be. Psychiatric evaluation with continuing monitoring to help with alcohol abuse as self-med for suffering from unresolved pain brought on by deep grief. Somehow, he recovered, fathered a son, but soon was drinking again. Sproul, Jr. Steps Down from Ligonier Ministries and Reformation BibleCollege, RC Sproul Jr Is Now a Convicted Felon Alcoholic and Is One Step Away From a Tragedy, RC Sproul Jr. Avoids Prison, Takes Plea Deal for Driving Drunk With Kids, https://relevantmagazine.com/god/rc-sproul-jr-suspended-ministry-after-admitting-visiting-ashley-madison/. I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. Divorce would go beyond that to Its the end of the road.. Unbelievers have often accused Christians of Dark Ages thinking. But for a professing believer to attack other believers in such a manner is disturbing. I had surgery Monday. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. However, he was considered a,dry drunk,never stopped his stinking thinking. There have been many such stories of peoples lives having been put into jeopardy by getting into RC Sproul Jrs car. I dont know where the line is. youll follow his example. It is remarkable how LITTLE one can do for an addict if the addict doesnt want help. Hes like Driscoll and so many others. Im the former member of RC Jrs church who contacted Dee. @ Barbara Roberts: That being said I think the far more important issue is figuring out some ways of keeping the public safe from him. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.). 12 step recovery (which I noted above is being challenged as the dominant mode of alcohol and drug addiction recovery in the US) is still pretty widespread and its tenents are a spiritual awakening via the 12 steps, followed by maintenance of a spiritual program largely of humility, honesty and service to others. It was far more than a couple drinks a day. Sproul was converted. Sadly the SBC expects everyone to be in lock step and they do everything they can to create fear in leaders lives that they will lose their paying positions. I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. I just dont know any. and I had a problem with the Bible, as a silencing technique. Sproul Jr. should definitely be fired for his litany of abuses of church members and his other disqualifying behaviors. Name me one church and one case that has carried out Biblical Church Discipline correctly. From what Im seeing on this thread, RC Jr. is Mark Driscoll, but only with more beer added. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. Tragically, her parents were killed upon impact, and my friend and I were pinned in the GMC pick-up in which we were riding. He calls it contumacy and breaking your covenant vows. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. While it is your prerogative since it is your blog, there are other legitimate treatment methods that do incorporate the word and there is nothing wrong with it. Bang head on table. Interesting points. A few years later as my fathers health deteriorated it was late and I was in the shower and I heard this crack and for the very first time my father called out my name in desperate need, it was in a voice I will never forget. He was into the Federal Vision (Doug Wilson) heresy which caused a lot of anguish for a lot of people for years. This is a much bigger problem in the church than just R.C. Yes, Christiane, thats precisely how it works. Have child protection services been properly notified and satisfied? But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. I guess human pain all has to go somewhere until it ends up at the Cross where it can be laid down so it cannot hurt anyone else. Sentenced aggressively and appropriately Sad but these christian pastors et al wont even go that far with a rapist or child molester. "Who will pay for the SBCs abuse reforms over the long term? I received a thank you today from someone who has just such a struggle, is a Christian, and lurks here. I posted my earlier reply to you too soon and I didnt answer your point. He needs a skill-intervention by those people around him. I got hit by it some 20-odd years ago, when my bathtub plumbing sprung a slow leak into the unit below me, occupied by a retired rummy (retired as in Im Retired!). Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. Search Vestal obituaries and condolences, hosted by Echovita.com. If somebody asks themselves where the line is then the line may be something they have already crossed in their own mind, or else why would they even ask. Why does someone have to specifically endorse treatment for someone or something in order to confirm in your mind that they are not anti-treatment? More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? Im not giving him a pass on any abusive behavior. And I'm sure you didn't mean 'Alcoholism is an excuse to drink' I'm pretty sure you meant something like "Alcoholics use tragedy as an excuse to drink. No prison time. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. She just didnt mention it, and she didnt need to. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. Perhaps if nothing else RC Sproul Sr. shielded and protected his son due his son having his same name and thus the sons actions tarnishing the fathers name. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.. we went to seminars and learned a lot about drug and alcohol abuse. We dont know. an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] Heres where it can be complicated to be part of the church if the church environment is where hes long been allowed to play out sinful behaviours should he be there right now? If sharing these ghastly pictures will convince someone not to drink and drive, I will be so grateful! Its almost as if their sinful exploits give them more street cred, and justify their continued sin. Most revealing are the forums and blogs by ex members. or an idolater, [worshiping false gods] I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Drunk driver got Vehicular Manslaughter (if not outright Murder) added to his DUI. That a pastor is a drunk, is reason enough for the Congregation to fire him. A close friend and her hub are rearing three teens (have reared them from babyhood) because their mom (their daughter) did these (ed.) @ Nancy2 (aka Kevlar): Theres still no excuse to be an abuser of others. Everyone here is pro-help for alcoholics, everyone here thinks that compassion is right. his life is focused on his next drink) then God tells us to put that person out of the church to hand him over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. Sproul Sr is his sons enabler. This led to serious issues for the people involved. We have gone several rounds. There are too many cases where churches have stepped in and made a bad situation only worse. I speak at CR on behalf of educating, as well as other community organizations supporting families such as AA. How can a nature be crucified? As far as anyone can tell it hasnt been reported on. Nice story about your father, Brian. And if it is true what you all say about people looking up to preachers, then right up at the top of people who need their jobs taken away is the drunk preacher. If you posted something negative about Dee or Barb at my blog as you have here, Id remove your comment, too. It has been unopened for a month now, waiting for the opportune time to celebrate. Barbara made a nasty comment to H.U.G. And I know about substance abuse. A different opinion here, perhaps, or a different way of looking at this. Rcjr had his license suspended for six months. He is also charming, manipulative, an involved father and a liar. *rar , '*& . Sr. cant stop Jr. from spending his money on alcohol. There is a reason that throughout time that isolation and solitary confinement have been used in just about every culture to break people. They also drive very slowly and deliberately, overcontrolling. Free Pass : Professional 501(c)3 Pastoral Improper Judgement Permit Provided? What are you agreeing with Barbara aboutthat all people with serious problems that require medical intervention and treatment should be publicly humiliated in a some kind of Salem Witch Trials II hearing? According to Ligonier Ministries: Dr. R.C. I wish I could get them out of it, as I cant even visit I am so appalled by it. Someone who lurks here and has a family history of alcoholism, and struggles with the issue as a Christian, found Barbaras response to H.U.G. People go at their own pace. I realize that our understanding of addiction today does make it complex, but I am just frustrated with the hypocrisy that makes us look pathetic to non-believers. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, and thats sort of in the back of my mind now when I think about things like alcohol and other distracting and numbing tools. Horrific..emotionally, physically , life changing in every way. Intriguing. Dr. R.C. She and I part theological company. I love them dearly & only wish they could have the love & grace that you & your church offered to her. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. Sadly the SBC expects everyone to be in lock step and they do everything they can to create fear in leaders lives that they will lose their paying positions. Yes, alcoholics need consequences to their actions to help them hit bottom. @ Velour: Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? R.C. And he does say at the end of the article the Bible does not condemn alcohol, and so I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. I did not see her post in that manner. I have friends and family who dont drink, for various reasons. Trying to live love and help my husband. Does that mean those holding different views will be given the left boot of fellowship? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. Hi Julie Anne, That night I was alone, my mother was somewhere around the city or in the hospital, he was in recovery and my nephew was with a neighbor. Had therapy and continues to do so. Theres a lot thats known about how to deal with people with addictions. The state does not usually come up with the funds for treatment. We can do better. No one has said we shouldnt try. . By the way if you had bothered to read the post, you can see I did find some help by way of material by MHPs, but I had to find that material on my own, because the MHPs I consulted in person over years were or no help. Not born again huh? he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. I dont know if the various treatment programs ( CR, AA ) create new problems or uncover existing, hidden issues. This was still a ways off, so I turned into the first driveway and waited. You are also incorrect that I am putting Barbara down because I disagree with her. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse.. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. I remember a few times (fewer than the number of excommunications, of course), someone was also publicly welcomed back at a worship service and biblically restored to the body. NOW he is a chaplain and accountant for a senior care facility. At the time Jr. was unmarried and although he knew that she was my wife, he came on to her more than once. Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. She told me before she died that she had forgiven him & she never thought she would. Sigh. For the record, I said above I dont know where I stand on this. Of course, if people believe that the real church somehow went dormant with the death of the last apostle and was not revived until the sixteenth century a lot of otherwise good ideas based on experience are just trashed-like the need for privacy regarding some things and how to handle both sinners and privacy within the church. and drive with children while drunk! Not completely sure what you meant by this part, People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. New TWW post. RC Sproul Jr has been jeopardizing the lives of the public, his own children, and other people's children, for many years. If you think gossip is on the same level, go turn all of the gossipers you know in to the police. I am very familiar with alcoholism and raising the bottom on alcoholics and not enabling their behavior. also has some unhealed issues, and perhaps might be from an alcoholic family or otherwise dysfunctional family. Drug court was denied because he was not bad enough, not because he had felonies. I used to have a lot of respect for RC Sproul Sr. No more. @ Velour: Abuse is a different issue. Two of them were guys showing out while drunk, but the others were victims of drunk drivers. RC Sproul Sr was, at least in RC Jrs formative years, a heavy smoker and drinker and set the example for his son. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. And thats wonderful news to hear about changed lives in your family. It was in response to this. ITs all the things! EVERYBODYS DOING IT! I know something about old tapes. Sometimes it takes the strength of one brave soul to shine the spotlight on evil and help save victims. And I dont have any sympathy for Driscoll. I was even on anti-anxiety meds for a few years. He made need to be hospitalized and treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. One way or another. Maybe feeling comfortable is too much to expect when something is not ready to be shared. This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. The responsibility of a pastor/leader is FAR greater, not less. I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). Because if everyone drinks like he does, it then becomes NORMAL! Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. She still would have died, but alone and condemned. but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. and me nasty too and to the whole understanding of the complexity of the problems. The solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast aside what the Bible commands the church to do, its to obey the Bible. But he doesnt always choose to do what we want, no matter how fervent our prayers may be. Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. 1960. You have no clue what is beneath someones drinking problem, nor does Barbara. People think they have far more impact than they do re: what they can control re: an addict, and they think they have far less control than they do re: what they themselves can do to reduce the impact of the addict. When you advocate excommunications for people, be prepared to fully explain yourself and be prepared for push back. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. To paint her as saying she is against treatment when she has said no such thing is not right. I can totally understand RCSproul wanting to protect his son, What I dont understand is his lack of faith in Gid dealing with his son. And I mentioned several times RC2s behavior that justifies him being put out. 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